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Tuesday, May 5, 2009

WHO IS THE WINNER?

STATUS OF CPOs /ARMED FORCES
Since September 2008 a great amount of efforts were given by Armed Forces towards projecting various cases to the Government for equating various military ranks with other Central Government posts/CPO ranks. Armed forces wanted various equations and presented their arguement in this direction. Let us now see what they have gained and what they have lost.
(a) Lt Colonel
The arguement placed by the forces was that this rank is having pay scale of Rs. 15100/- (including rank pay) and that should be placed in Pay Band and Grade Pay above the rank of Commandant in CPOs whose Basic pay was starting at Rs. 14300 /- .
This arguement did not hold any water and all arguements placed by Armed Forces were not agreed upon. The status after the final order is that the rank of Lt colonel was not given Grade Pay of Rs. 8700/- and thus it is now formal that the rank of Commandant is equivalent to full Colonel of Armed Forces. However in the bargain the armed forces is lost hundreds of posts on deputation where Lt. Colonel will still go on pay band -3 and Grade Pay Rs.7600/-.
(b) Commandant
This rank is now formally established equivalent to full Colonel / Captain / Group Captain of Armed forces and this will now become bench mark for all the equations in the rank hierarchy.
(c) Second in Command / Commandant (Junior Grade)
This rank of Central Para Military Forces / CPOs is still equivalent to Lt Colonel / Commander / Wing Commander of Armed Forces view it is clearly stated that the rank of Lt Colonel will be treated as of Grade Pay Rs. 7600/- when on non-combtant duty. Though a Grade Pay of Rs. 8000/- is given to Armed Forces but this Grade Pay will be treated as equivalent to Grade Pay of Rs. 7600/- outside the circles of Armed Forces(Combtant duties).
(d) Senior Military Ranks
The Senior Military ranks lost heavily in favour of status in relation to para military forces. All the arguements given by armed forces for equating Colonel Senior to DIG, Major General Senior to Inspector General and Lt General Senior to Director General was not agreed by the government and the rank equation as stated by VI th Pay Commission is now stands implemented. This has given strong morale booster to 1.5 million para miliatry forces and their legitimate demand of equation of ranks stands vindicted.
(e) Various Allowances
Though Government had given military Service pay of Rs. 6000/- to the officers and Rs. 2000/- to others, it is utmost essential that this disparity should be immediately corrected and all CPOs should be given this pay at the earliest.
(f) Higher Pay Band to Second in Command
It is essential that Government should immediately upgrade officers of para miliatry forces of this rank to Pay Band -4 and Grade Pay Rs.8000/- in order to maintain the equation. Armed forces and CPOs are operating in the same area and both of them carrrying out various duties which are similar in both organisations. Under these circumstances upgradation of Pay Band and Grade Pay of only one organisation will create sense of dissatisfaction among para-military forces.

2. Thus we can see that all the arguements placed by various blogs in favour of Armed forces were not agreed upon by the Government of India. It is now essential that Government should amend WOP and should rewrite the equations based upon the existing realities of life, we cannot live forever in the past and should change and accept the existing equations.

3. It is for all of us to decide whether in this fight the Armed forces have lost or gained, to my opinion they lost heavily and lost it permanently.

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

Dear BP Sir,
Well said and it is now established that our stand was only correct, AF stated outdated WOP which now requires to be changed.However PB-4 should come to Second-in-Command at the earliest

A FAUJI said...

For once I agree with you,which no body is able to understand,and are showing happiness on navdeeps blog

Anonymous said...

BP
You or again on to it

Anonymous said...

Dear BP
Nobody is winner,IPS is making fool of PMF and IAS that of AF

mp said...

BP,
Why don't you seek equation with IPS who know nothing of the job done by you as also will and have been showing their asses in the face of the enemy in addition to bossing you around (If you are from any pmf other than CG and AR). If you can get pay parity with them at least your left B**l Sukhi will not be so dukhi!!

mp said...

Anyway nice to see you woken up from your deep slumber!!!!

Anonymous said...

they say that whatever one may try, its impossible to straighten tail of a dog. BP go to sleep.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sir,
You are correct to the core and rank equation is corrected once and for all with Grade pay as the only poin for any equation
Well written Sir

Anonymous said...

Oye BP
Understand and write correct thinghs,Ltcol will be always senior to Second-in-Command with any Grade pay

Anonymous said...

Great BP ji
Only you on this earth can have these ideas, god bless you and your fouj?

Anonymous said...

BP Sir,
I could never understand these AF Officers, why they always live in their false sence of seniority.They are just any other gazetted officer and nothing more than that.
These officers are not IAS/IPS and they know it still they try to jump the gun.

just said...

hi...
good to hit this site today.
I had a query. What is meant my organised sector ? Is CPO's a organised sector ? Or only the Group A Services fall under the organised sector ? Is Armed forces part of organised sector ? Who/ What decides a sector is organised or not ?
I will be thankful if somebody can answer my query..

Anonymous said...

Dear BP,
Yes AF lost the case once and for all,with the election at the last leg no body will look towards AF demands anymore.

Joseph Peters said...

Laughable.

1. Lt. Cols are now in Pay Band 4, and will not be deputed to outside orgs. At NSG, etc, they will still carry PB4. So your fraud claims of the so called "2nd in command" rank being equitable with LtCols was never, and neither is it now, true.

2. The case for correction of status of all ranks from Captain to Brig is underway.

3. Lt. Gens have been upgraded to HAG+. 33% of all LtGen posts stnad upgaded to that rank by seniority, which essentially means that all LtGens will attain that rank by thier turn. No CPO officer will ever reach these ranks anyway, so why ever bother carping about it?

4. All LtGens passed over for promotion to Army Commander due to age concerns are going to upgraded to the APEX scale (equivalent to Secy to GoI).

5. The Chief of Army staff is in the cabinet scale (90000). Your services highest rank is PB4, GP10000. And almost none of you make it there. Even your overlords, the IPS have no officers in this scale. So how can you compare yourself to the armed forces, old son?

6. Anyway the CPOs are a spent force. The one IG from the cadre the CRPF had, even he has been arrested for corruption. Very sad.

Anonymous said...

Joseph Peter,
Well every second day one Ltcol is cought in some corruption case, latest is on wheat scame on 05 MAY 2009
What you have to say?

Joseph Peters said...

My dear sir, all I want to say is, that such pointless mudslinging does nothing but hurt the feelings of people who are doing their best by their country.

And when I say this, I include the CPO's in my assessment.

BPSingh Sir's stated aim is to discuss the welfare of the CPO's Jawans and Officers. Well and good. But instead, Commandant BP Singh seems to be focused only on meaningless comparisons like "Who is the Winner", and other violently anti military propaganda.

We are all soldiers for the same country. Army men consider CPO members to be their colleagues.

If there is a tragedy, it is that this government has created all this ruckus, and inserted a divide between us.

I still say that if there must be a CPO, let it be under the control of CPO officers. Why, after your cadre has matured over so many years and generations of officers, are your orgs still run by IPS men, whose experience, say, in border management, is NIL NIL?

You may look to the example of the Indian Coast Guard if you like, about which Comdt. BP Singh has made such a hue and cry in his previous post.

Say what you will, the Coast Guard (a Paramilitary Force under the MOD) has had a Coast Guard officer as its DG (Mr. P. Palleri). As such he had control even over Indian Navy officers on deputation to the force.

Can any CPO officer under the MHA ever dream of becoming DG in the CRPF, ITBP, SSB, BSF, CISF, and having authority over the IPS officers?

I am sorry to say that the facts indicate that under Military leadership, the CPMF's have clearly received a better deal than they have under the leadership of the IPS.

Just my thoughts, sir. It does not become senior officers like Comdt BP Singh and others who post here to run down the defence services, who, after all, are your brothers, countrymen, and comrades in arms.

It is easy to say things on the internet, with noone face to face. But these words still have an emotional effect. As my response to BP sirs post has obviously had with you.

With regds,
Peters.

B P SINGH said...

Dear Peter
My aim is never to show that AFs are any way less than any other class one oficer in Govt of India.The stated facts are to explain that nothing big to cheer about.
Nobody can deny that AFs lost the status since last 61 years and with every day it is going down
If CPOs can be happy under AFs then in BSF when under Army officer even the first promotion was not give to regular Asst Comdts for 15 years,Please check the History of BSF under ARMY and then only speak, about 120 court cases were filed on these delay in promotion.

Harry said...

@ Shri BP Singh ji

1. Well done for carrying out the analysis as these suit you !!

2. If you think there is just case for upgrading 2IC/ Comdt(JG) to PB4, pls counter Maj Navdeep's justification on the issue.

3. BTW, Grade pay of 8000 rupees to Lt Cols is only interim measure. Grade pay of officers accross the board is still to be decided by another 'High Power Committee' headed by Def Secy. So your celebrations may turn out to be 'premature' and you may find it dificult to eat your words later.

Anonymous said...

Dear Harry,
What so ever suits Armed Forces may not be correct every time and what CPOs requests/gets will also be not wrong every time.
It will be in everybody interest to give respect to others rank.If Ltcol is placed in PB-4,no objection is from CPOs, we only want our SIC/Comdt(jg) in PB -4 ALSO.
Let all Army officers be in HAG+ NON OF OUR CONCERN ,IF GOVT GIVES IT YOU.
What Comdt BP Singh has done is to tell the truth if you can't take it lump it.

Harry said...

@ Annony above

No emotions pls, gimme hard n cold logic!! Lest it is taken that in absense of concrete reasoning, emotional blackmail is the refuge.

Joseph Peters said...

You know what I find so sad about all this... Army and CPO officers are saying things about each other.

Yet, the fact is, that we are much more in sympathy with each other, than we are with other services.

Even BP Sir, I think, heart of hearts, only wants the best for his boys, and doesnt mind the army getting anything.

At least this is the feeling I am getting from many of his posts.

The prevailing opinion amongst most military officers also, is not that the CPO chaps dont get X, Y or Z. Its simply that our old seniority is maintained.

And as BP sir has pointed out, we have been degraded over the past 61 years! Everyone knows this. Is it wrong for us to put our foot down at some point or the other, and say enough is enough?

The IPS has been raising its equivalencies year after year.

Only about 3% army officers become major generals.

Yet, ALL IPS officers reach SAG (GP10000), within 18 years. Can it be said that they are senior to Brigadiers, with 32-34 years of service? A man who was fighting in the Northeast, or in Kashmir, when the IPS chap was still in primary school, is he supposed to be junior to the IPS fellow, just because of a skewed system?

Our fight for justice is not a fight against anyone, especially not CPO's, who in some cases face the same dangers as us.

It is simply a fight against injustice.

Please do not think wrongly of us. Our fight is also for our boys, and to give them their self respect back.

With best regds,
Peters.

mp said...

Well said Peters!!

just said...

How can the CPO's compare themselves with the Army guys. Do you people do anything except policing ( may be with better weapons) . Do you people handle sophisticated equipments like the Indian Army. You know we have Army Battalians which are tasked to fire Prithvi and Agni missiles. We have army Battalians which uses tanks and run the sophisticated machinery within. Which CPO unit is capable of that.

Dont see the subsidary task of Army in irradicating Militancy. That is not our main task. We cant have intake based on that. Our task is much more sophisticated and requires much higher level of intelligence, physical fitness and devotion which no CPO's will ever be able to achieve.

So dont equate yourself based on something which you dont have. It will be just ignorant blabbering.
And dont equate a person just on the number of persons he commands. That way a doctor or professor will be lower then a NCO.

Look at the work he does and is capable off. A surgeon does not become equal to a General physician just because he does the same work as his subsidary task.(When General physicians are less or there is a sudden requirement due to high number of patients).
Similary Aid to civil Authorities is just a subsidary task and the same must not be used for equating Armed Forces and the CPOs.

Anonymous said...

Mr above,
Just because Army is holding bigger weapon,does not make them something big.NSG hold weapons which are much better and they are CPOs.

just said...

hi..
sorry, but your knowledge about NSG is shallow and it shows in your comment.

The main fighting force in NSG comprises of the Army which are the SAGs. All operations of Counter-Terrorist are performed by SAGs. To name a few, the famous Mumbai operation was carried out by 51 SAG, "Operation Vajra Shakti" at Akshardham Temple on 2002 was carried out by 51 SAG, similarly in 1993 Indian Airlines Boeing 737 was rescued by 52 SAG in "Operation Ashwamedh".

The SRGs comprising of the CPO forces are just tasked with VIP protection duties and are physically and psychologically incompetent to perform the more sophisticated task of Counter-Terrorist activities. (All this information is available in public websites like NSG website, wikipedia etc so u can check it back)

Its a pity that you are talking of use of sophisticated equipments in NSG, but you should be aware that the CPO units are not using any other weapon except the "H&K MP-5 Machine Gun" which may be a accurate weapon but not more sophisticated than a AK-47 . All the other sophisticated equipments are handled by the Army and off course the reason is the same, lack of sufficient knowledge and intelligence which is required for the same.

Please dont make me comment on the physical fitness of the CPOs because it will be another blob on them.

I am not in favour of demeaning any person in perticular. But my friend above, I must tell you that please do some research or at least ask someone who knows before you write such foolish comments because it will just make your own CPO body look shallow.

Harry said...

@ Mr BP Singh

Pls see the following link and get real about the potential/capability (or rather more specifically, lack of it) of CPOs before you run the Army down:-

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fV0WCDBPfsk/SgeLECq7lUI/AAAAAAAATT4/7cfbqsbs1tY/s1600-h/Clipboard01-736721.jpg

mahi said...

hi all BP Sir has has started a new debate in CPOs at least he has the courage to come up against the odd i do not remember a single AF (fauji)to come up so openly that to in fauj of morethan 15lac where the deficency of officers is more than 15000 only in army (excluding the navy airforce)where as the total strength of officers of all the CPOs is hardly 15000.so there is no question of compare and courage in CPOs it is the matter of concern for all the CPOs that some one is putting there comments on net .still debate can be done on the all issues and result will be that AF is elder and remain elder to all CPOs and all fauji should behave like elder and help to youngers to protect there rights which is not been given by the BADA BABUS(IAS/IPS)more over our own BABUs (ministerial)is also part of this i will quate an example we CPMF are still not getting the HFAA/FAA/MFAA,CI ops allowance, high altitude allw,Transport allowance ,Family accomdation allowance,double HRA for J&k,.....etc...etc.. on the some or othere pretix.all CPOs must be given allowances at par with ARMY otherwise ...............GOD KNOWS who will come to join the CPOs may we to facing the shortage of offices as in AF and the future will ..................................................

mp said...

you are right mahi!! please join the crusade with BP since sukhi has been lost in oblivion. Encourage bp sir and make him a Bali ka Bakra!!!

Anonymous said...

Dear MP
Probably you are not aware of BP Singh, he is the last man who can be made bakra

just said...

dear mr BP..
just reading one of your comments. and had this query. Would you be kind enough to explain that had you wanted to join the Coast Guard ( or you later joined it due to unknown reasons) did you appear for the SSBs and CDS exams. I am really curious to know as to why you participated in the SSB or the CDS examinations had u not wanted to join the Armed Forces. I hope it was not just because you knew that in future you would have to defend yourself in your own blog.

The above question is just out of curisity. Hope it is not a very personal question which cannot be answered here.

Anonymous said...

Dear BP,

All this while you have been geting brick-bats form our faujis brothers. Now since we have a stable govt. and the election are over policies on pay commission are to be fine tuned. Now if we get a strong RM then.........it has to be seen that how the situation is dealt.

It may be recalled that in oct 08 Shekar Gupta in Indian Express has written an article on the union like attitude of the service chiefs. The article is as under:

But now, for the first time, these incumbents have stood in defiance of civil authority as no military chiefs have ever done in India’s history. And howsoever genuine their grievances over the pay commission — as they seem to be — they have set a precedent that future generations of Indians, and even their own successors in years to come, will come to regret. Their decision to not notify the cabinet order on the pay commission was unprecedented and shocking. True, they were cheered along by the increasingly vocal community of ex-servicemen, many of whom harbour long-standing, deep and justified suspicion of the bureaucracy, and who were in turn egged on by one campaigning TV channel, Times Now. They saw this pay commission as one more too-clever-by-half effort by the babus to push the military a peg or two lower in terms of both money and protocol. They weren’t entirely wrong. But was this — the three chiefs turning themselves into a group of defiant trade union heads — the only way to handle it?

The brass may now think they have won a famous victory, with a very weak Government conceding most of their demands. But today they do not see the damage they have done in the process to their own fantastic tradition and institutions. The soldier’s usual contempt for the political and bureaucratic classes is not entirely misplaced. They are all the terrible things the soldiers believe them to be: cynical, scheming, vindictive and so on. And by this incredible public show of defiance they have exposed more than their flanks to future assaults from those two classes the moment a stronger government, a half-way effective raksha mantri step in. Soon enough, there will be a civilian riposte, and unfortunately it could take away from the armed forces and their future chiefs some of the autonomy in decision-making, even small purchasing powers, that they have won in tiny parcels in a six-decade war of attrition. This pay commission episode will now be invoked by stronger governments, and certainly better defence ministers — as almost anybody would be after Antony — to “cut the brass to size” with the argument, “remember how they behaved over that pay commission? And it wasn’t even Thimayya, Manekshaw, Sundarji, P.C. Lal or Tahiliani.” The curse of this pay commission will hang over South Block for a very long time, until the emergence of some inspirational trinity of chiefs and, even more importantly, a visionary, strong defence minister, who can somehow signal a new beginning.

…A.K. Antony’s handling of the pay commission issue has been pusillanimous to say the least. As defence minister, he should have fought for his armed forces and got them their due from the pay commission in the first place. But, having failed to do so, he absent-mindedly countenanced trade union-like activity within his brass. He agreed to accept a memorandum from the three chiefs together, and somebody even invited TV cameras while he did so. Some platitudes were spoken, and the entire country got the impression that the soldiers had been done in by the pay commission and now the three chiefs and their minister were all fighting for them. This, I am afraid, smacked of some kind of “industrial action” rather than the subtle, skilled management that our higher defence establishment demands. Its consequences will be far-reaching and long-lasting and could leave the institution of our apolitical military seriously dented.


Let us see who's is the next RM....and how he tackle the unfinished job.

mp said...

Dear BP, Now since you ppl also have got pensionary benefit why not start a crusade for PB for your 2ic

mp said...

for "PB" read "PB4"

loverboy said...

@mp that is because if you seek PB4 for 2i/c, the services would ask the same for majors.as far as the services are concerned both are equivalent ranks. this would once again start the old debate which had created so much of muck earlier. PB4 for 2i/c will never come thats for sure and thats why CPOs are not asking for it either.

Anonymous said...

Dear just said...

your comments are another example of degradation of class in AF.You have units in army tasked for firing missiles,using tanks.no qualms but you are good[?}for conventional war.A country needs forces to deal with LIC.You keep on singing song of missiles,tanks and fail in subsidiary task as CPMF are carrying out this task with dedication and successfuly.The modern army keep evolving as per the requirement of country and changing security scenario.Instead of keep dusting youe prized missiles,sophesticated equipments and enjoying free ration come to the terrafirma and face unconventional warfare.Show your intelligence,fitness,devotion in C.garh,AP,orissa with your missiles and tank.Fighting with enemy country is far easy then fighting the enemy within.The cpmf are doing this and army is also doing this since long.The US army has come long way to fight its enemy leaving behind excuse of distraction in trg,prepration for conventional war.CPO/CPMF do not need any certificate and their role and growing influence in country's security is recognised in shape of various gallantry medals to brave men of cpmf,large number of them are posthomus in last 30 years.When country is bleeding from inside,the subsidiary role becomes primary and more important then shining missiles,tanks.100% CPMF is deployed for the last 25 years without any break in CI,AI,IS,Elections,law&order duties and still you are not willing to give them credit speaks enough.

cpmf said...

cpmf...
Dear mr just said
pl correct your facts about NSG and pl do not mislead.all members of army as well as cpo undergo same test and same trg.on the contrary they cpo personnel are in higher age group,they still do well.pl brushup knowledge and find out facts about op black thunder.the performance and sacrifice made by SRG is way ahead.Systematicaly the SAG is brought to ct and ch and srg was confined to vip security.reason the vip security forZ+ is much more taxing,regular deployment,high risk and on the other hand ct and ch once in a while affair.
pl dont be so arrogant in your comments and pl go and ask your esteemed seniors about role played by cpmf in ci scenario in last 40 years starting from NE to pb,jk and latest LWE.do not expose yourself by writing baseless facts.

If you think AKs are sophesticated weapon then anyone will pity your knowledge about weaponary.weapon are selected as functional requirement and AKs are very good but not the latest.
Gone are the days when army was only option and now cpmf are doing their task successfuly despite being less paid,less promotion opportinities,less family accomodation availability.once you serve the country other requirements are secondary.

just said...

dear Mr Anony..
please write some name next time (it is easier to address back )

No one is denying the task done by the CPO organisations. All the accolades to the martyars who died for the mother nation. I dont take back a bit of credit earned by CPMFs in doing a great service to the mother nation.

The talk here is not of service to nation. Each service is doing service in its own way. The talk is of equivalence. How do you define two persons equivalent ? Is it just because two people wear the same tabs on the shoulder ? If Yes then the Ticket checker of Shatabdi Trains is equivalent to a Squadron Leader of IAF and the sentry of my nearest mall is equivalent to a Captain.

It not then is it by the number of men you command, then the Forces Doctor should start wearing one stripe from tommorow.

My friend, the task defines equivalence. It is the main task of the person and not something which is given for a short duration.

The Armed Forces act as the main deterent force of the Nation and is required to be kept at a ready and professional state with adequate training such that any country does not dare to attack it. .
It was only after 1971 that Pakistan realised that they couldnot defeat our Nation and made it a policy to do so by giving us a thousand cuts. Had the armed forces not been the deterant. They would have thought something different.

The US sends its regular troops only for a year for afganistan like duties. So please know about the facts before commenting on the same.

It is not which task gains importance for a short duration of time (like during recession, some MBAs may even sit and do task of a software person) but what task is more important in the long run. If internal security is main task of the CPMF, it is expected that they do it much more professionally. Likewise in army no one complains when it comes to laying mines and BSF are expected to lay lesser number of mines in a day while same number of army persons are expected to lay almost double of them.
Similarly no Air Force pilot will complain if an Indian Airlines pilot is not able to land in a Kuchha airstrip, but the Air Force pilot may have to land a similar aeroplane in similar conditions.

The subsidary role of Army may be primary role for the CPMFs but both role are equally important and no role takes a back seat in current situation.

just said...

dear mr cpmf..

first of all, some clearing of doubts.

1. the SRGs are also part of CT and CH ops and the task is to cordon area while SAGs neutralise/ flush out the terrorists. If what you say is correct, it would be the opposite.

2. Earlier VIP security was not a task of NSG and even now the task is to be handed over to CISF as per recommendations of security experts as all security of vital installations and VIPs is primary task of CISF.

3. The task of VIP security was given to SRGs because they had nothing more important to do except provide support to the SAGs and had to justify their presence in NSG.

4. "Operation Black Thunder was successful with the blockade tactics paying rich dividends, with only two wounded Black Cats, and has been credited with breaking the back of the Sikh separatist movement."(wiki) . Yes all type of cordon is task of SRGs and I dont take away anything. The tactics of blocade paid up. Hats off to the strategist.

5.I said 'the CPO units are not using any other weapon except the "H&K MP-5 Machine Gun" which may be a accurate weapon but not more sophisticated than a AK-47' . I believe you had a mis-understanding. It meant, the sophistication level of H&K MP-5 Machine Gun is not more than a AK-47 which everyone knows is not the latest weapon. The basic difference between both is that AK uses "Blow back with API" and MP-5 uses "Delayed blowback" which makes the breach much lighter and thus improves the accuracy at short ranges.

6. Everyone in forces are aware that the timings of tests are changed with age and being of higher age group is no excuse for lesser performance.

7. About task of both, my previous writing puts a light on the same. I dont think I have to reitrate it .

CPMF said...

CPMF said...
Dear just said
equivalence of task can be done once two people doing same job in addition to doing their different primary roles.If the task given for short duration is critical for security and growth of the country and army and cpmf are performing same for the last 30 yrs{CI,AI,IS}as couterpart has changed the tactics keeping in view its long term strategy, the equivalence is very much justified and required.

I appreciate the great services of army,AF,IN like any other citizen of country for their role in 62,65,71 and 98 but like to highlight the role of BSF in facing first assault on Indo-Pak border and role in mukti bahini during liberation of East Pakistan in 71.CRPF has shown top class service to the nation in HOT SPRINGS despite being outnumbered and poorly equiped.
I appreciate that you acknowledge that no role can take back seat.Our request is simple that disparity in pay,perks,failities should not be there once doing same job in same condition and in certain role the service condition are much more tougher ie border guarding requires
men to be under open sky for ten months in a year and through out his service if not deployed for CI or IS.Isolation,monotony,no family life,no peace posting option,not able to provide quality life and education to children in absence of proper SF Accomodation is not the just return for his service.

cpmf said...

cpmf said...

dear just said,

The VIP security is very sesitive,stressful and requires high degree of mental alertness,physical fitness and quick reflex.SRG are performing the job day in and day out without break.
Any task in any ops in CT and CH is no lesser than other.Without estb cordon flushing out can not be done succesfuly.

I need not to discuss weapons of NSG due to obivious reasons.they have the best.

SRG have glorious past and can not be downgraded if you are not willing to use them due to fear of end of your monopoly.

just said...

dear cpmf..
why do you talk of equvalence just because some of the infantry guys are doing some of the task which you are doing ?(even if it may be subsidary or otherwise)

Why dont u people ask equivalence with the IPS because the similarities are more there.

The is sad that CPMFs are not even considered as GP A Services because not even 50% of officers constitute the Rs 10,000/- grade pay level ( earlier Rs 18,400 basic) from the parent cadre. It is bulk of the IPS who form that. You people are not considered competitive enought to head your own organisation. And if that is not enough, the bulf of IG and above are from IPS and not you. If you are really worth your salt then instead of arguing with me about equivalence, you people should at least fight for getting you due in your own organisation.

Its a pity that the IPS cadre has so much trampled you that you people are scared to talk about equivalence to them when there are a lot of organisations where both you and the IPS serve together.

The Armed Forces are headed by persons who are higher than any officer in IPS. There are hardly any organisations with both cadre working together. The role is totally different.
(If we dont take into consideration only one or two organisations like NSG and even here the task is not same ).
IPS are part of the Indian Civil Services and Army officers are part of Indian Defence Services which are totally different in their constitution and task. No similarities exist except for the reason that IPS copied from the Army in dress and other things almost a century back.

How can we compare a person who flyies a Su-30 and a person who is policing the streets. The level of competence is different and any equivalence doesn't merit any consideration. We can compare him partially with a person in Army just because the intake is the same. Otherwise their is no comparison. And if the intake level is different then there cannot be a comparison.

just said...

dear cpmf ...

again.. the same thing. No one's here to take away what you are doing. Its great and a service to nation.
But I would say only one thing. IPS commands the CPMFs and the highest IPS is a DG who is lower that any Lt Gen of Army (Warrant of Precedence). So please talk of equivalence after commanding your forces. Let us see ur capabilities being recognised by the world.

Today, if you are not considered capable to command yourself, then how are you equivalent to a force which does ??

I myself believe , it is you who should become the DG and not any IPS who does not know what he is commanding. And that day, my friend come and talk of equivalence. I believe no one will deny then.............

Anonymous said...

BP Singh ji,
It is time to write again, last mail had enough of debates

cpmf said...

cpmf said...

dear just said,

Sorry for delay in responce being out.the question of equivalance is not because few infantry men are doing the same job but because bulk of the army and major part of the cpmf doing the job which is critical for security of the country.The job profile has changed in last 30 years.LIC is order of the day and conventional war is remote possibility but can not be ruled out.So at present and in future cpmf and army personnel going to do same job, sometime together and some time seperately.This self obsession of being superior is to be shed and respect to fellow soldier is to be shown.Even your arty,eng,ord,ASC,eme and armd fellow are part of RR and you say that few infantry men doing the same job.PITY.
As far as our posn viz a viz IPS is concerned things are on right way and gradually cadre officers are gaining.For your info which seems to be very poor rank of ADG is also with cadre officer now.IPS officers have played their role very well in growth of cpmf along with large number of EC officers.Our org are are growing rapidly and we have shown our relevance to country and that day is not far when our own officer will be our head despite being very young in comparison to army.What was your posn in army under british rule?
We respect IPS for diversity they have given to cpmf as well EC officers for giving army ops facet.we do not down play anybody like you.
how ignorant you are by saying that police has copied the uniform of army.pl go and read the history of police and come back.
The pilot of su-30 MKI,AN 32 or any other aircraft have their place secure but the bird is guarded and maintained by soldier/ame and pl ask the pilot what does he think about them.Do not degrade everybody else just because you are in AF.A watch function with help of numerous parts and same way country functions on basis of various org.

cpmf said...

Dear just said...

To show the capability this is not imp that one should command.A patrol led by officer can not move without scout.scout fails and patrol is finished.DG of cpmf is more imp then a Lt Gen who is not commandig corps or ARMY.
If we are not commanding the force it does not mean that we lose our right of equivalence.Only one man reach the level of COAS but it does not mean other were incompetent.The IPS is commanding us and we are striving to reach there.But that will not diminish the imp of a soldier deployed on border or in CI,LWE,AI and loc.

Anonymous said...

BP Singh ji,
Get up early like Maj Navdeep and start writing at least once in a week

loverboy said...

I didnt say this, it was on whispers for all to see.

"The situation in BSF, as narrated by one Raj, who is surely a departmental officer, is true & pathetic. At the same time, his intention to bring out the poor work culture does not seem to be genuine because he is mainly against the induction of IPS officers into BSF. As per my estimate, against total cadre officers strength of about 4,000, IPS officers are merely 25 or less (1-DG, 3 Addl DsG, 14 IsG & 4/5 DIsG). If the cadre officers themselves failed to improve the work culture in their own force, what 20 IPS officers can do to improve the situation. It is simply a blame game, nothing else. As far as, the role of local police is concerned they are meant to aid the civil administration and petty criminals. They cannot be equated with CPOs personnel who are exclusively trained to fight with hardcore criminals/enemies for which they are adequately paid by the Government. Each and every sacrifice is suitably compensated by both Central & State Governments. These are the cadre officers only, who do not take care of their own soliders/their families. Who says that cadre officers remain away from their families for 28 years ? These are only poor jawans, on whose names, all facilities are begged for. Except for initial 3-4 years service on border, every officer enjoys soft staff postings at Btn HQrs with their families with all free facilites at the expenses meant for poor jawans. These are their own families who do not want to remain back at their natives, where no such facilities would be available. If you count, you will wonder, how many BSF persons are working as cooks/domestic servants termed as Security Aides in the houses of retired officers in Delhi alone. Nobody cares for proper infrastructure for jawans at Border Out Posts because there is proper arrangement for Officer Commanding the Coy and the visiting officers from Btn HQrs. CPOs jawans are living in inhuman conditions but there is none to take care of their grievances because their own officers are busy in grabbing soft postings/ promotions and rooting out IPS officers. May the God takes good care of these Forces, which are being driven to wrong side."

loverboy said...

This is another one at whispers from one of your own.

"I want to convince Amitabh Aggarwal, Advocate that unfortunately I am not an IPS officer but one of the poor jawans, who have seen the reality of Force on ground. I may also add that these are IPS officers who are regarded most in the Forces because of their style of working and civilised behaviour. As far as cadre officers are concerned, barring few good ones, almost are disliked because they do not want to redress the grievances of jawans but treat them as slaves. Cadre officers remain busy in their own ego clashes within groups such as SSCOs, Direct Entrants, Promotee Officers (further divided into sub-groups based on their background e.g. Communication, General Duty, Ministerial, Junior Engineers, Water Wing, Sports, Motor Transport etc.). Outside people do not know the inside matters of forces and inside personnel are not allowed to speak outside. Further, exemption from RTI Act on security grounds, is helping them to protect even their corrupt fellows. If I disclose my identity, I am liable to be fired on the grounds of indiscipline and you will not be able to protect me in the Court of Law as you know, in Force, the Court is their own, witnesses are their own, prosecutors are their own, defending witnesses are their own and most importantly the Judges and Appellate Authorities are also their own. The conviction rate by such Force Courts is 100% because charge-sheet is framed only when one has to be fixed. How much I should write more in this regard ?"

Sat. B.

Joseph Peters said...

First cadre officer of BSF becomes ADG. Congratulations, from an army officer. You fellows deserve it. I think the BSF would be a much better force, if headed by a BSF DG!

viv said...

mr bp singhji
you as bsf officer , why are you having grudges against armed forces officers?we never said dont give pb4 to cpmf 2ic.your organizations are being screwed by IPS officers who are eating all MALAI.if possible kick them out
our services chiefs fought for perks privilege of defense offrs because they are one of us for past 40 years and not outsiders like IPS DG,Addl DGP in NSG

just said...

dear cpmf....

sorry for such a late reply but m getting very less time and the next reply may have to wait at least two more months.

First, I believe the CPMF's have always got a raw deal from the IPS lobby. In the warrant of precedence, the DG's of few CPMF's are mentioned. It must be stated that DG's of states do not even stand mention because they dont deserve to be there. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_order_of_precedence"

About the Lt Gen in IA, you must know that unlike the IPS, IA does not have unnecessary Lt Gen's or Maj Gen's who dont require to be there. Only persons with work and valid appointments are present. "http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Today/20-Senior-Officers-List.html" but if you see the number of DG's, Addl DG's and similar in a state like rajasthan "http://haryanapolice.nic.in/telephone.asp" , it will look hilarious. Only a Maj Gen eqates with an IG and further there are no eqations. I am sure, you will agree that important appointments like DGMO, Quarter Master General, or DG of Supply and Transport are doing a task nothing less than Corps Cdr and cannot be equated less.

I must mention that small states and forces like Mizoram and NSG also have a DG. With a sanctioned strength of 14,500 for NSG "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Guards" (The operational head of NSG is a Brigadier (Force Cdr)), I believe the DG of NSG should not be considered higher then a Brigadier or max equivalent to a Maj Gen. If similar things existed in Army then it should have at least 2000 Lt Gen's by now. Just giving a higher pay scale does not gve a higer equivalence as already been clarified by the Sixth Pay Commision.

Now a question for you. How will you equate a person who is flying MIG-29, commands 3 more planes. and in no way can participate in the CI ops. Just because his task is not CI ops, he has been not utilised operationally after the 71 war. What do you think of his importance and how will you compare him with a CPMF officer. I believe, their cannot be any equivalence. Hope, that answers you.If not, pl tell me your comparison.

Please dont think that I am degrading you. Your job is important, but where is the equivalence ? If it is equal years of service, then ask it with IPS who are much more similar to the CPO's. And I will accept it (not because it is fully correct but because it is accepted today by all of Gp A Services)

Lastly congratulations for a ADG level officer from the BSF cadre. Hope the trend continues......

just said...

one clarification.....

As per Indian order of precedence, the 26 th rank is of
"Joint Secretaries to the Government of India and Officers of equivalent rank, Officers of the rank of Major-General or equivalent rank"
thus my comment that IG is equivalent to Maj Gen is incorrect

raj said...

well written factual post. disparity arising due to elevation of lt col to pb4gp8000 is likely t o be stemed as goi is actively considering elevation of sic to pb4gp8000 my sincere advice to brothers in defence to clean their mess first& stop comparition on imaginary grounds tendulkar cannot be compared to premchand though both r genious in their field